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International Beer Parlour/Archive20090831

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The ultimate dictionary[edit]

The following list is a suggestion of general upgrades :

1) Black wallpaper with colored fonts in "My preferences", for energy and eyes preservation.
2) Crossword research (?string*), with paronyms suggestions, and definition content research (eg: all synonyms or of a specific word, all transparent words or of the selected languages, list of homonyms and paronyms, national or international (more than just false-friends).
3) Print link for all objects (arrays, pictures, schemes).
4) Link towards articles to achieve and to external include in the dictionary.
5) Photo, sound and video edition interface, with history.
6) Page reading, with several voices at a choice, and the possibility to read some pages with video plugins in addition (karaoke, colored fonts, films, video algorithms). And on the contrary a voice recognition navigation.
7) Download version for PDA and mobile phone with regular updates (more than MoulinWiki).
8) Addition of new 2 or models : transparent words, false-friends (international homonym and/or paronym).
9) Category word occurrences number in language (more than common or rare).
10) Degrees of holonymy, meronymy, hyperonymy and hyponymy. For instance, the horse is the meronym 2nd degree grado of equidae [...] and the 14th of animals.
11) Translation of these *yms.
12) Translation by changing the person of a text (eg: replace "the customer must do" with "you must do").
13) Counter of letters and sounds (phonemes) of sentences.
JackPotte 10:23, 11 January 2009 (EST)
14) A list of future neologisms to elect. JackPotte 13:09, 25 January 2009 (EST)

Hoi, most of the things you propose take programming. Often quite serious work. Some of the features do not make sense to me. A future neologism? A word that is going to be made up tomorrow ? Thanks, GerardM 14:38, 25 January 2009 (EST)

Sorry I just thought to an election list, for instance as it takes too much time to say "by going through the hyperlinks of the site" we could propose a new word "by hypering". JackPotte 11:41, 2 February 2009 (EST)
I often do #1 with the Negative plugin in Compiz-Fusion. Not all compiz plugins are eye-candy. ;-) --Kim Bruning

Annotations are back[edit]

I am so grateful to Malafaya for finding that a table was gone.. This was what prevented the annotations from showing in the edit screen. THEY ARE BACK :) Thanks, GerardM 12:46, 20 January 2009 (EST)

 *cough* How could we lose a table? Siebrand 17:24, 26 January 2009 (EST)
It was hidden under a chair. --Kim Bruning 00:47, 7 February 2009 (CET)

Camping Out[edit]

Omegawiki is moving between physical data-centers over the weekend. While the move is happening, the Omegawiki website has gone camping. We've moved it to a temporary machine in the Netherlands. This is not the normal ow server, and accommodations are a bit cramped. The poor Omegawiki software is not happy to be away from home, and we met some nasty insects earlier today. I think we've managed to chase most of them back out of the tent now. ;-)

--Kim Bruning 00:56, 7 February 2009 (CET)

Any clue of when it's going back to the permanent server? Malafaya 01:20, 13 February 2009 (CET)
We missed the Monday switch-over due to diverse delays at the data-center. We're now ready to do the switchover anytime.
It's probably a good idea to give a little bit of advance notice though. Unless I get poked and told that all y'all are in a mighty hurry, I'll be locking the database and starting switchover on Monday 16 Feb at 12:00.
Does that sound like a good plan?
--Kim Bruning 01:22, 14 February 2009 (CET)
Fine by me, Kim. What about other fellow OmegaWikiers? :) Malafaya 04:49, 14 February 2009 (CET)

I am proceeding. The database will be locked 'till this evening, at which point we'll have switched to ye olde server (though at a new location). Omegawiki is going to roast its last marshmallows, and then it's heading back home ;-) --Kim Bruning 12:24, 16 February 2009 (CET)

IPA phonetic pronunciation and Annotation query[edit]

Because the Khmer language uses a non-Latin alphabet, when I add a Khmer synonym or translation to a definined meaning, I am also adding the pronunciation of the Khmer word as an annotation (using the International Phonetic Alphabet).

Eg, for family, I've added គ្រួសារ in Khmer script and put IPA kruəsaa as an annotation.

Obviously someone who searches for "family" comes to the page at . Seeing the Khmer synonym, clicking "annotation" reveals the pronunciation. That's great for someone in my situation, learning Khmer.

But visitors searching on the Khmer word ( គ្រួសារ) are taken to the expression pageគ្រួសារ where there is no way to see the pronunciation.

I think the annotation for គ្រួសារ ought to show up on that expression page. I think displaying the pronunciation is a no-brainer, but whatever annotation has been supplied probably contains information the person consulting the dictionary ought to see. (And adding pronunciation to the Expression page isn't guaranteed simple. In English, whether project or record are used as nouns or as verbs dictates their pronunciation. It's just that deferring the pronunciation to the defined meaning page doesn't really help.)

Maybe this is classified as a feature request. I think it is more fundamentally an issue of the Omegawiki mission as to what is the most basic and always-displayed information as differentiated from what you get only when you dig deeper.

Khmer is not tonal and is straightforward in its pronunciation of the Khmer orthography. However, even if other languages provide intransigent problems in transcribing pronunciation, I don't think that should be a barrier to displaying this information on the expression page. — Rsperberg 12:44, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

I don't understand... On both the DefinedMeaning page and the Expression page I see the Annotation containing the IPA to the right of the word. --Tosca 13:08, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
If I'm on the page whose title is "Expression:គ្រួសារ ", then the only thing I can do is go to the one defined meaning page that shows up there. You can see what I mean in this screen-capture posted at flickr:
Btw, the browser showing the page in this screen-capture is not displaying the Khmer correctly, but that's not an Omegawiki problem. — Rsperberg 15:47, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
Try to click on the text of the definition. The entry should then expand and show all the translations of the definition and all translations and synonyms with their annotations. You can also click on the + to the left of the link to the DefinedMeaning. --Tosca 17:15, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
Clicking on + does indeed expand the DefinedMeaning and stays on the same page. So does clicking the definition (which I never thought of, having only clicked on the link to that DM page). I was unaware of this and thank you for pointing it out to me.
This does indeed make the pronunciation part of this page. The thought that the user had to go to the DM page to see it bothered me a lot. And even though both approaches take two additional clicks, I'm mollified to a certain extent. However, I still believe showing the pronunciation for non-Latin scripts is highly desirable. This is the page for the Khmer expression — what better place for it? And given that virtually every consonant sound can be represented by two or more letters in the Khmer alphabet, it's often easier to locate a word by looking it up phonetically than orthographically. (There are, for instance, six different characters that are used for "T".) It seems well within OmegaWiki's purview to display the pronunciation of a particular word in one language on the Expression page about that word (OK: about that expression) without requiring additional clicks. — Rsperberg 11:14, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
You are right, the interface of OmegaWiki is not very intuitive and lacks many features. There should be a way to search for words using the pronunciation or transliteration. Unfortunately I'm not a programmer and currently nobody does programming work for OmegaWiki, so I'm not sure when we will see any progress. :( --Tosca 11:37, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
It will actually take one click once you expand the list once. OmegaWiki memorizes expansions and collapses of lists so next time you open a page, it will keep them expanded (or collapsed, depending on how you had them before). Malafaya 12:23, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

WikiIndex and InterWiki[edit]

I ran across WikiIndex today and edited the page for OmegaWiki, just to get something accurate posted there. I thought I'd post mention of it here so more authoritative information could be entered there.

That led me also to see if I should be using an interwiki prefix for OmegaWiki and this didn't seem to be the case. Given that this wiki has hundreds of thousands of pages, it seems large enough and well-established enough for there to be a need for one. Was I missing this or should someone official make some sort of request regarding this?

PS: How many pages are there in OmegaWiki? WikiIndex lists 366!? — Rsperberg 18:30, 29 March 2009 (EDT)

This page also includes a metadata field for "Wiki Node," which doesn't mean "registered in some central registry" as I expected. Instead it should contain the URI of the page here at OmegaWiki that "briefly describes the wiki and the top 7 or so closely related wiki." In other words, it's a good landing page for people coming from another wiki and who may really need to go to someplace related to OmegaWiki and not OmegaWiki itself, but don't know it yet. And presumably it's because they're looking not just to consume information but to contribute information themselves. There's a good explanation at the WikiIndex site at WikiProject:Wiki-Noding.
May I suggest that such a page be created here by someone with a good idea of not only what OmegaWiki does but what it doesn't do because there are other wikis that perform those related tasks. (And can identify those those sites and relations.) This Wiki Node page provides our view of the local cluster in the entire wiki universe. It also provides an authoritative place to identify what's on-topic for this wiki (and, if needed, also what's off-topic).
I won't duplicate this info and post it also in Functionality wanted .., but I think a WikiNode page might be desirable in the navigation sidebar, and hence one of OmegaWiki's special pages. — Rsperberg 10:06, 30 March 2009 (EDT)


Under "Annotations", I cannot enter most types of Relation. The only relation type that appears available to me is "antonym", where I would expect to also be able to enter a "narrower term" or "broader term". Am I doing something wrong, or is this a rights issue, or is it a bug in the software? TIA – McDutchie 13:59, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

I believe that kind of relations has been deprecated by the use of classes, but User:GerardM may be able to tell you for sure. Malafaya 08:45, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
This use has indeed been deprecated by the use of classes. "Broader then", "narrower then" are unspecific, they do not explain in what way something is broader or narrower AND they can both be applicable depending on the POV. Thanks, GerardM 00:52, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
Thanks, that clarifies. – McDutchie 01:12, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
Could you clarify how classes can substitute for the hyperonim/hyponim relations? I've read both DefinedMeaning and Class and this is still unclear to me. While I do understand the usefulness of well-defined "Collections" like ISO 3166 (countries) and ISO 639 (languages), recording semantic relations between DefinedMeanings (especially "broader/narrower" and "close meaning") is (IMO) crucial to OmegaWiki's applicability in lexicography, linguistics and other domains, especially since the DefinedMeaning-SynTrans system suffers from a lot of limitations compared to traditional dictionaries. --Studyclerk 17:10, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

If the classes replace the relation "hypernym" does that mean that "conjugation" is hypernym of "abandoned; acceded; accepted; accompanied; accustomed; ..." ? --Ortografix 16:52, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Significant update[edit]

I can't see anything new. My guess is that we have upgraded from Mediawiki 1.10 to Mediawiki 1.16. Is it correct? --Kipcool 16:06, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

That is correct. RobertL 20:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Well that is good news :-) I had tried it myself, but that was really a mess, and Inputbox was not compatible with the old version. Thanks! --Kipcool 08:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

A question about the database..[edit]

Hi, I ran into an issue with the database that I can't find a way to relate defined meaning or a syntrans entry with the attribute tables. I expected that let's say syntrans id would be in uw_objects.original_id, and corresponding object_id would be found in uw_option_attribute_values or uw_text_attribute_values. Instead, I only find very few matches and only with uw_defined_meaning. Here is the query:

SELECT count(*) FROM uw_defined_meaning dm, uw_objects ob, uw_text_attribute_values tval WHERE 
    defined_meaning_id = original_id AND ob.object_id = tval.object_id;

, it returns only 882 matches. I would expect most expressions at least have an attribute of being a noun, verb, etc. I know I must be missing something simple here... (Rainy)

Maybe you can have a look at User:Malafaya/Removed options causing problems and get some clue on how to link the different tables/ids. I'll try to have a look myself if I find some time. --Kipcool 12:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I have had a look around and wrote User:Kipcool/From DefinedMeaning to attributes. Does it help ? --Kipcool 16:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that explains it perfectly, thanks. -Rainy


Now that we have the Babel extension installed (thank you Siebrand), the page Babel and its translations are outdated. Is there a multilingual help page somewhere we can point to? --Kipcool 12:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd prefer the use of the Council of Europe's framework to define somebody's language skill. It's simple, clear, well defined and more and more used in Europe. See the table at page 24 of the document. The Council of Europe has 47 member States, including the European Union members and Russia, and covers an area with about 220 languages. As far as I know, this is the widest scaled international document of that kind. OmegaWiki's classification is quite strange to me. It seems that "professional" level is higher than "nearly native speaker"! Many people use successfully English (or another language) professionally with a lower level than "nearly native speaker", for instance many English French teachers. 01:31, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, the best is to stick to what is available in MediaWiki. Your proposition seems like a good idea, but it would make more sense then to modify the Babel system directly in MediaWiki, so that it is centralized, and useful also for Wikipedia and friends.
Professional means that you are a professional translator, not just someone working with this language. I am myself working in Germany, speaking German and English everyday, but that does not make me a professional translator. A professional translator is supposed to know more about the subtelties of the grammar than even a native speaker. --Kipcool 09:15, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Creating new expressions[edit]

Due to the recent updates of Mediawiki, when an expression does not exist, it is not proposed to create a new one (only to create a new page).

To allow this again, the page to modify is MediaWiki:Searchmenu-new for English, and MediaWiki:Searchmenu-new/fr, MediaWiki:Searchmenu-new/de, ... for the other languages. I have proposed one in the French, we can discuss it and/or adapt it to the other languages. --Kipcool 22:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)