International Beer Parlour/Archive4
- 1 2014
- 2 2013
- 3 2012
- 4 2011
- 5 2010
- 6 2009
- 7 2008
- 8 2007
- 9 2006
- 10 Pointer: Multilingual discussion organized
- 11 Thoughts about recreating and translating unknown historic languages
- 12 Foto opportunity
- 13 Offensie culture
- 14 New logo
- 15 It's a bit confusing
- 16 Bug?
- 17 Move button on Expressions?
- 18 Editing relational data
- 19 Editing summaries
- 20 New functionality
- 21 Kölsch and underscores
- 22 Exact meanings / Approximate meanings
- 23 Bambara?
- 24 The first more serious block
- 25 Armenian Swadesh List
- 26 GEMET clean-up
- Archive 2015-01-31 of discussions inactive since 2014-10-31.
Pointer: Multilingual discussion organized
Here is an initial proposal at Wikiversity on how multilingual discussion could be organized: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Multilingualism --Purodha Blissenbach 00:25, 3 September 2006 (CEST)
- On wiktionaryZ we have the same thing on
Mainpage Template:Mainpage/Translations DefinedMeaning
gegnisht | asturianu | па-беларуску | bokmål | Deutsch | ελληνικά | English | español | esperanto | فارسی | français | עברית | Interlingua | Italiano | 日本語 | 한국어 | Malti | Nederlands | Portugês | русский | po slovensky | suomi | svenska | wolof | +/-
Expression Template:Expression/Translations Babel Template:Babel/Translations
- We translate help pages and the like into various languages, however, this suggestion on Wikiversity deals with multilingual discussions, i.e. the Beer Parlour in all languages. I think it's an interesting approach, but it does create a lot of overhead and I'm skeptical about its feasibility. --Tosca 22:27, 5 September 2006 (CEST)
- For WiktionaryZ it is important that people translate Definitions. Given the copious amount of discussion that will get created, I wonder to what extend it would be helpful. Consider, ISO-639-3 alone has 7602 languages .. GerardM 00:02, 6 September 2006 (CEST)
- Some Translations, some Definitions will need to be talked about. It's good to have some of that in several languages. Imho the multilingual selection feature will do for that, statemens and sample sentences will usually be brief. Some language features will need talks (e.g. recently someone said, adverbs and adjectives in German are always identical. Really so, no exceptions? etc.) Since such stuff, once decided about, nedds to be comunicated to all potential translators, well have to have pages explaing the language specific attributes, their precise application in every case, etc. in at least many languages. Such translations need to be organized in order to be found. How do we do that? Users will (for a while) ask questions about such explanations on the respective talk pages, demanding clarifications, etc. how do we deal with languages there? How do we organize demand for retranslatiing, or updating translations of ammended pages? As for the guiding pages to the use of attributes, e.g. it is crucial, not to let translations drift apart! Watching how others handle their similar task might inspire us. -- Purodha Blissenbach 03:00, 6 September 2006 (CEST)
- Btw. My current estimate is, that ISO/DIS 639-3 has at best half the number of languages that we will potentially have in WZ pretty soon. -- Purodha Blissenbach 03:00, 6 September 2006 (CEST)
Thoughts about recreating and translating unknown historic languages
There are some languages that archeologists know pretty much about, but are completely or almost completely unable to read, understand, or translate them into modern languages. Usually only few words of such languages are understood, e.g. the names of a handful Nubian queens that appear both in their own script and expressed in late Egyptian hieroglyphic writing in inscriptions; or about two dozen words that could be identified from rare pre-roman Etruscan artefacts. While the writing system, and often the letters and script directionality etc. can be determined, words can be identified, but neither grammar, nor the senses of words have been found yet.
Can WiktionaryZ be of help for decifering those scattered pieces of information?
I believe yes, in a later state of development. Which absolutely means, if someone feels like laying the base for such work, and start to enter some ancient un-understood words, she or he should go ahead and begin with it.
How can we enter words of a language, whichwe do not understand, with a grammar which we don't know and proably know nothing about, words that certainly bear no specific meaning for us currently?
Expressions can be entered word by word in their script. Of course, one would start with the known words, if any, and bind them to their definitions and meanings. Next, the rest will be entered with Definitions like unidentified word no. 1488 from stele no. 16 of ancient town bar-fu graveyard or somethig the like. When typing a word a second time, it will obvously be found i the data base, and in that process, electronic representations of the old texts will be transliterated into another electronic representaton as a series of 'word no. …'s which is of course not a big gain of information, although one probably finds some series of word repeated vaerbatim or similaraly at different place. I'm sure that has been already analysed and has not helped yet to understand. Nevertheless we should enter such context information as relations in WiktionaryZ. Factor analysis will allow to detemine which of those relations are likely to be relevant, and which should rather be treated as statistical noise. Maybe here already regularities show that lend themselves e.g. to interpretations by potential assumed grammatical or synactical rules. It such things are clear, they obviously should be entered in WiktionaryZ as well. Possibly other knowledge has already been collected about texts, e.g. from the place they'ver been found in, since e.g. it is likely that incriptions are related to the things they are on, or depicted next to them, or the place surrounding them, or the purpose of objects, etc. Now when all these data have been collected, with WiktionoryZ, we can do something which has not been possible before.
Put in simple and nonscientific words, we can take all other languages with their words and their structural and meaning-related relations, and collectively compare then to the words and structues of the undecoded language. We can gray out all modern tems, like computer terminology, and space shuttle fuel pumps, and we will give closer languages a higher weight than more distant ones - closeness measured in time, space, ethnic and cultural relations. If we happen to know of themes, such as trade, agriculture, war, or relating to the dead, these will be valuable bridgings or ties, and so are already known words or names. I believe, it is not unlikely that such structural mass-interlanguage comparison will narrow down the potential contextual meanings of words considerably, and maybe can exclude certain hypotheses pretty quickly by providing possibly for the first time in history a way to test them at a statistical level with a usable scrutinity and computable precision (likelyhood).
Of course details of such anaylis have yet to be deveolped and refined for thir field of application, but they are also not entirely new. Modern cryptanalysis is already using comparable methods to work on various bodies of text about which not much is known, often not even their language.
I would not currently throw my hat in the ring and dare to predict anything, or talk about time, but I firmly believe that such comparative mass analysis of structural aspects of languages will provide some evidence and increase our knowlede about and our understanding of these mysterious ancient languages. --Purodha Blissenbach 04:37, 3 September 2006 (CEST)
- I like this one :-) it is somewhat like a immense jigsaw that never will come to an end ... it is possible. --Sabine 10:42, 3 September 2006 (CEST)
The first time when FOUR WiktionaryZ people were present.. Well, maybe there were four at Dvortygirl's presentation at Wikimania .. we have however no "proof" of that.. GerardM 17:42, 3 September 2006 (CEST)
- Do the 3 others want to keep their identity secret? Kipcool 20:28, 3 September 2006 (CEST)
I take offense that "beer" is used in the name of this page. How are you ever going to attract people who fear having their names associated with alcohol? I suggest this page is renamed to "village pump". --LA2 21:00, 5 September 2006 (CEST)
- Hi LA2, it is definately not our intention to offend you with an arbitrary name for our market square. We're currently a very informal group of enthousiasts having fun in this pre-alpha software environment. That element of fun is for example shown by the name of the page for bugs, the Insect room. I personally see no reason to change the name of this page. The Dutch Wikipedia has a village pump called De kroeg which translates to The bar. In the 6-or-so months that I'm active there, I haven't seen anyone take offense from that name, IMO it's just a name. If you feel better going to the Village pump, you could create a redirect from there to here. Cheers! Siebrand 21:05, 5 September 2006 (CEST)
- I'll be back in six months to see if things have improved. --LA2 21:14, 5 September 2006 (CEST)
- This behaviour does not provide any argument to change our ways. If anything this behaviour by LA2 is offensive. GerardM 21:30, 5 September 2006 (CEST)
- The idea of using redirects can be useful in any case. This page and other similar (e.g. multilingual) pages could be created with a neutral name that could be even a code. Then the names in each language should be redirected to that page. --Mikalaari 13:37, 6 September 2006 (CEST)
- On the english Wiktionary it is called Beer parlour too. There is noo reason to change. Redirects could be usefull though. HenkvD 13:42, 6 September 2006 (CEST)
- I do understand the point of LA2. When I first arrived here I must say I did raise my eyebrow at the name "Beer parlour". I understand it's just a name, and I don't mind posting here now because I know that the discussions here don't remind one of a typical Beer Parlour. It's the only thing about WZ that I didn't like from the start, though. The fact that Wiktionary has it too comes as a surprise to me. To be honest, if it ever came to a vote, I'd opt for a new name.
- For clarity, I think LA2's reaction ("I'll be back in 6 months") is highly inappropriate, and if he's really that sensitive, he should reconsider working on wikis. László 21:48, 9 September 2006 (CEST)
How does a title like this help newbie find their way around WiktionaryZ? -- Zanimum 22:07, 12 September 2006 (CEST)
- Wikip rule #1: Don't criticize, make propositions! Kipcool 10:15, 13 September 2006 (CEST)
- Those words have never been mentioned on Wikipedia, let alone as a rule. Is WiktionaryZ part of Wikipedia? -- Zanimum 22:04, 16 September 2006 (CEST)
- I agree with Kipcool that we do not like foolishness. This is a foolish question; it is like asking is Wiktionary part of Wikipedia. The only correct answer .. is not answering because it does not deserve one. GerardM 22:50, 16 September 2006 (CEST)
- Like László at my first contact, I felt another name but beer parlor could have been a more decent choice, as instantly our muslim fellows came to my mind who might feel invited to a place of an activity forbidden to them. Ok, it's a page name not a physical place, yet how do average Americans or Europeans feel e.g. with a ganja room, or an hashish smokers corner, or the palace of golden dreams of opium? Would you be happy being in the press as The wiki project that invites participants into a "temple of illegal drugs" and that "yourname" being a frequently seen user there? As we probably all know, deliberate misinterpretations are common, and are commonly being used to promote sales, ideological standpoints, justify political pressure, etc.. The recent incident about the pope is only one of many dozens that I regard as such.
- Personally, I dislike the (all american) beer parlors I've seen yet (cheap filthy places where you get water-like beer, frozen down to a health risk, with tons of ice cubes, despite your order "warm, no ice, please" — I'd prefer a solid pub ;-) ) Yes, to me it's only a name, so I don't object changing it to whatever everybody pleases. --Purodha Blissenbach 12:01, 17 September 2006 (CEST)
- I agree that we should change the name of this page. Why not use "Village pump"? Marcos 00:23, 8 October 2006 (CEST)
- Not likely. We are a distinct project. GerardM 11:11, 7 September 2006 (CEST)
It's a bit confusing
I just added the translation of the English verb see in Portuguese (as ver) but the word ver has not been updated with this new language/defined meaning... It never happened before. Is it a new bug? Malafaya 00:13, 9 September 2006 (CEST)
- Do you see it now? (I see it) I think it's a problem with the cache of pages. You can desactivate caching in your preferences (in the last tab), if you don't want that to happen again. Another way to make it appear is to edit the page "ver" and save it without modifying it. Kipcool 00:51, 9 September 2006 (CEST)
Yesterday and today quite a few incorrect expressions have been changed by using the Move button. WiktionaryZ expressions should not be moved but should be added as an translation and removal of an translation. HenkvD 17:42, 9 September 2006 (CEST)
I find it really cool that there now is a possibility to add an edit summary. As on Wikipedia and the "normal" Wiktionaries, precise editing summaries really is a help to other editors. I try to remember to provide a summary, and would like to point out the possibility to others. Cheers! // habj 14:28, 11 September 2006 (CEST)
There is some really nice new functionality. It does not have a starting place yet.. but it is really nice:
- http://wiktionaryz.org/Search:casa will look for all words that include "casa".
- http://wiktionaryz.org/NeedsTranslationTo:Dutch&source-language=French This looks for words in French that do not have a translation in Dutch..
- Thanks, GerardM 14:32, 11 September 2006 (CEST)
- Wunderbar, prima, toll! Kipcool 14:39, 11 September 2006 (CEST)
Kölsch and underscores
A problem has arisen with the possibility to add Kölsch Expressions and Definitions to WiktionaryZ. In Kölsch it seems there is a de facto standard to use an underscore to join two words that should be pronounced as they were one. (Purodha please correct me if I have misunderstood. *smile*) The Kölsch wikipedia f ex uses this type of spelling. This is a problem for all MediaWiki, since underscore is used to replace space in url:s. Therefore, there is no way to have a difference between WiktionaryZ:dat do and WiktionaryZ:dat_do.
How do we solve this? Require MediaWiki to change? Hack around it locally (can that even be done?)? Require Kölsch to be entered differently than normal usage (f ex a hyphen)?
I guess part of the answer must also depend on if we can expect other languages to also use underscores in a meaningful manner in their orthography. Does anyone know of any others that do such? --Sannab 19:58, 12 September 2006 (CEST)
- Up to now the _ Hack is to the best of my knowledge only used online, and is btw. criticised as not looking pretty. The original suggestion had been to use a different character, similar to a little arc connecting notes in written music. This was - for the sake of easy typing - replaced by an underscore. Thoughts exist, to convert underscores during the output process to something else, looking prettier and preserving inter-word-spacing. In the Ripuarian Wikipedia, the _ are often seen as mere interpunktuation, so preserving them is not that important. Also some do not write them anyways, some even do not write some parts of Sandhi, e.g. „dat es“, "dadd_eß“ denote the same sound, similar to english "duddes" ("u" as in "bug", stress on the "e")
- Imho a good compromise might be, to convert _ during input, like ~~~~, to something else which is unique, and truly in the interpunctuation class of characters. Btw. the X's used in Esperanto as special character escapes are technically somewhat related to this idea. --Purodha Blissenbach 20:17, 12 September 2006 (CEST)
Exact meanings / Approximate meanings
- Exact meanings
- A female other; the female previously mentioned.
- Approximate meanings
- Another person; the person previously mentioned.
Finally have a laptop again. (My laptop never made it from the Netherlands to Boston. Probably got stolen...) How can I add words in Bambara, the language is not in the language list? I remember Gerard explaining me something about that, but I forgot what exactly. Guaka 18:57, 17 September 2006 (CEST)
- I think you should ask Gerard or the developers to add it. Do you know the ISO-639-3 code of the Bambare language? --Mikalaari 11:29, 18 September 2006 (CEST)
- Done. GerardM 12:01, 18 September 2006 (CEST)
The first more serious block
Dangherous had created a profile on WZ. He was explicitly warned that due to his reputation he was not to do anything that was not in line with what was to be expected. I noticed that he experimented with some spam. I have as a consequence revoked his editing priviledges and banned indefinetly. GerardM 12:00, 18 September 2006 (CEST)
Armenian Swadesh List
Would Armenian count as a "lesser used European language"? If not, I'll look into making a separate Swadesh list (unless some other category seems more approriate) -Rappo 07:04, 25 September 2006 (CEST)
- I am happy when we get Armenian content re the Swadesh list .. Any option is fine :) GerardM 07:55, 25 September 2006 (CEST)
There is still a lot to be done about the GEMET data, so here's a little list.
- Kipcool created a list with all Expressions containing parentheses: User:Kipcool/toCorrect
The new Search feature is also really helpful:
- Expressions containing a comma
- Expressions containing a semicolon
- Expressions containing a slash
- Expressions containing a bracket
--Tosca 17:50, 25 September 2006 (CEST)