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International Beer Parlour/Archive5

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New features[edit]

There was again a wonderful upgrade of the software:

  • we can now have access to discussion pages for DefinedMeanings, as for example DefinedMeaning talk:everywhere (7801). DefinedMeanings can be browsed in Special:Allpages. I've counted them yesterday: 9194 DMs.
  • browsing the history for the WiktionaryZ namespace is now better, you can see a version of a particular date.
  • one of the translations in your language is also shown now with the definition in your language (on the main line with a '+' to expand)
  • something about the relations that I don't get yet (incoming relations?)
Incoming relations: relations can now be bidirectional, so incoming relations are DM:s that have such a relation to the current DM. So if AAA is set a a broader term than BBB, on BBB AAA will be listed under incoming relations. --Sannab 18:37, 28 September 2006 (CEST)


  • In WiktionaryZ:fabriek for example, I've deleted/renamed the names with parentheses (French and English for examples), but what I see in French in the expandable line is "établissement industriel (bâtiment): Buildings where the operations related to industrial productive processes a..." whereas it should be "établissement industriel" without the parenthesis.
  • I've tried removing DefinedMeaning pages that correspond to no expression: DefinedMeaning:Aabenraa (6194), DefinedMeaning:Aabenraa (6197) DefinedMeaning:Aabenraa (6198). Now, it doesn't appear in Allpages anymore, but it doesn't seem that the data itself has been deleted, we can still see the definitions. So, are we supposed to delete them? Kipcool 16:42, 28 September 2006 (CEST)
I guess, since deletions are made by flagging records as deleted, that the "deleted"-flag should be included in the data base query looking for the first definition. → Insect room. --Purodha Blissenbach 17:48, 28 September 2006 (CEST)
ok thanks, looks like the same bug as Insect room#Deleted expresion as prefered translation of a DM?. Kipcool 17:55, 28 September 2006 (CEST)
WiktionaryZ and DefinedMeanings are database enties. They should be deleted via the edit button. If the page still appears (as it will do with the current software) the page could be deleted afterwards. Don't try to delete (or move) a database entry either. HenkvD 21:29, 29 September 2006 (CEST)


Since the new features of 27/9 relations are bidirectional (see above). In my opinion we can now remove the WiktionaryZ:narrower terms and only use the WiktionaryZ:broader terms. The narrower terms will automatically show on the Incoming relations. Would this be a good idea?.
Furthermore there is discussion about the use of WiktionaryZ:broader terms for only subset relations and a new kind of relation for subpart/element relation. See for background on User_talk:HenkvD#Countries_and_Continents and User_talk:HenkvD#Relations. Personally I prefer a simple approach: a general broader terms to be used for all. HenkvD 21:09, 28 September 2006 (CEST)

Also it would be fine to make clear what narrower/broader means — Does "incoming relation 'broader term'" mean that we are looking at the broader term, or at the narrower term? Does "incoming relation 'broader term'" mean, it comes from the broader term, or from the narrower term? I have not set these relations yet, since I could not find out, what they mean. --Purodha Blissenbach 16:09, 30 September 2006 (CEST)
An example: a narrower term of chemistry is analytical chemistry.
As incoming relations analytical chemistry will have Other defined meaning chemistry with Relation type narrower terms.
HenkvD 23:29, 30 September 2006 (CEST)

This text has been copied to Talk:Relation. Further discussions to be held there. HenkvD 23:59, 1 October 2006 (CEST)

Proposed Collections[edit]

ICAO radiotelephony spelling alphabet[edit]

I suggest that this collection uses the uppercase Latin character as source identifier, and that members (e.g. DefinedMeaning:India (5735)) of this collection have Expressions in English only, with their Definitions translated, but not the expression since (afaik) they're expressly taken from English. --Purodha Blissenbach 06:01, 1 October 2006 (CEST)

ISO 3166-1 codes[edit]

I suggest that this collection uses the uppercase alpha-2 code as source identifier, and that members (e.g. DefinedMeaning:India (5733)) of this collection are the countries having such codes. --Purodha Blissenbach 06:01, 1 October 2006 (CEST)

ISO-15924 codes[edit]

I suggest that this collection uses the alpha-4 code (initial uppercase, followed by three lowercase letters) as source identifier, and that members (e.g. WiktionaryZ:Hebrew script) of this collection are the script names being referred to by the codes. --Purodha Blissenbach 06:01, 1 October 2006 (CEST)

1000 basic words of a language[edit]

I think, such a collection needs to be set up individually for each language, and unless we find a way to compare and relate the different sets of words from various languages somehow, I do not really see a good use for source identifiers here. The members of the collection are, of course, the 1000 basic words according to the languages "basic words" list. --Purodha Blissenbach 06:01, 1 October 2006 (CEST)

I copied these proposals in the page Collection which I thus created. I think it's better to have a separate page for these instead of having them in here. --Mikalaari 21:30, 1 October 2006 (CEST)

The definitions of the nationalities[edit]

Most, if not all, of the nationalities could be defined in the same manner. At the moment we have at least two different definition patterns for them:

A person of German nationality.
A person from Italy, or of Italian ancestry.
A person from Japan, or of Japanese ancestry.
White Russian
A person of Belarusian nationality.

Should one of these used for all nationality definitions or should we refine it? Or is there perhaps a reason for the difference? I think that the shorter would be fine and the ancestry side of (some of) the expressions could be defined in another DM.

I'll create a page for this kind of definition patterns where they can be discussed and saved for reference.--Mikalaari 12:53, 2 October 2006 (CEST)


Should there be a section for pronunciations? Some words (especially in English) have the same spelling but different pronunciations (see WiktionaryZ:sow for one). A good dictionary has pronunciations as well as relations. Maybe even a word root section as well, for words that did not originate in the language. Jfingers88 21:17, 6 October 2006 (CEST)

Most definetly.. WiktionaryZ is still at its pre-alpha stage .. Having pronunciations is part of the design for the project. GerardM 22:30, 6 October 2006 (CEST)
Oh good. Let me know how I can help with that. Jfingers88 05:48, 7 October 2006 (CEST)
You can either record pronounciations on Commons, or when you can code in MediaWiki, you might want to consider helping us making WiktionaryZ better.. Thanks, GerardM 09:13, 7 October 2006 (CEST)
I do not know how the design of the project is, but I see pronounciation just as some form of Expression, isn't it ? luna 15:28, 14 October 2006 (CEST)
The same Expression is often pronounced in several ways. It is therefore in the database an attribute of the Syntrans record. This is where the Expression is associated with a DefinedMeaning. GerardM 17:03, 14 October 2006 (CEST)
What I wanted to say it's that when you write down a pronounciation (e.g. with IPA) what you have is just an Expression. For example /pɔm/ is a french Expression whose Script is IPA (or some variant, I am no sure) for the DefinedMeaning DefinedMeaning:apple (5781). Indeed this Expression is closely related with the Expression WiktionaryZ:pomme but I am not sure that this must be the most relevant. There is some other problems when you want to add some sound file for pronounciation, but as we stay on written forms I do not see reasons to split pronounciations from other written forms. luna 17:52, 14 October 2006 (CEST)
A reflection of a pronunciation in IPA (or whatever) is not an expression of that language. It is different. It is also different depending where you are from. We will not stay on written forms; we will include pictures and soundfiles at some stage. GerardM 18:14, 14 October 2006 (CEST)
Or maybe I should read International_Beer_Parlour#DefinedMeanings_and_forms_of_words, Functionality_wanted_..#Different_meaning_of_the_same_word_vs._entirely_different_word or just remember some discussions before re-opening widely debated points. luna 18:08, 14 October 2006 (CEST)


Is it possible to revert an accidental edit, e.g. an accidental deletion of a definition. Earlier on I accidentally deleted all definitions of "house" and put them back on by hand. But I think there should be a quicker way of reverting such mistakes. Is there? Marcos 00:13, 8 October 2006 (CEST)

a few questions[edit]

  • I keep getting the "new messages" box (in talk page), although I've already visited there.
This is a bug that is fixed in the main branch of MediaWiki.
  • Are we planning to link to the native wiktionaries?
This is technically feasible it needs programming though.
  • What about grammatical info such as saying the WiktionaryZ:tag is ones a noun and ones a verb?
We are still pre-alpha, we hope to have this in a month and a bit.
  • The hebrew interface is corrupted. How can it be fixed? (I'm not familiar with CSS)
In what way is it corrupted ?
The labels (tabs) on the top of the page overlap each other, so sometimes it's unreadable.
  • For hebrew version of, say, DefinedMeaning page: Am I supposed to invent a hebrew translation for "DefinedMeaning"..?
No read DefinedMeaning you are supposed to translate the existing Defintion as literally as possible.
There's been a misunderstanding. What I meant was localizing the DM wiki-page to hebrew. In that case, should I translate "DefinedMeaning" to hebrew, or leave it as-is in english?
That's what I'm asking just below I think :-) if you know where to translate this, please tell ! le Korrigan bla 16:58, 11 October 2006 (CEST)
  • Hebrew uses "nikud" instead of "aeiou". For example, "Greek" can be translated into יוונית or יְוָנִית. However, no one will ever type-in null-space chars in the search bar. What should I do in that case? I can, if you'd like, define a policy for hebrew words.
There are several people who have an interest .. Drork has been active at WiktionaryZ .. discussing this with him seems to me to be a good idea :)

Thanks a lot, Mintz l 16:39, 8 October 2006 (CEST)

Hope this helps.. GerardM 17:00, 8 October 2006 (CEST)

Translating interface messages[edit]


I would like to translate the various messages which appear when you browse through words (such as "Exact meaning", etc.) in French, but I can't find where to do this. The Special:Allmessages page doesn't seem to show those messages, unlike on "normal" MediaWiki websites. Any hints ?

Thanks, le Korrigan bla 14:45, 9 October 2006 (CEST)

This is currently still under development. For now the user interface is in English only with some MediaWiki aspects in your set interface language. When we update to a more recent version of MediaWiki, for all main languages, the main interface will be nicely internationalised. If you are interested in creating a user interface translation for a language, please take a look at Betawiki. Siebrand 11:03, 16 October 2006 (CEST)
Leftmost has been working on code to allow for the translation of the language names.. This is for both the search box and the listing of names .. The idea is that a language will be shown in the language of your User Interface or in English .. (suggesting you to add translations ..) As well as anything, consider the translation of the terminology used in the UI because these will be shown in your language at some stage .. :)
For your amusement: GerardM 12:24, 16 October 2006 (CEST)

Connection to other MediaWiki projects[edit]

Will this project be able to 'leverage' work done on the current Wiktionary project? It would seem to be less repetitive to copy all that data in and then set up the language links rather than re-defining everything from scratch. Also, I have noticed that ParserFunctions don't work on WiktionaryZ. Does that mean that WiktionaryZ is using a 'fork' of the MediaWiki software or is it just not up to date with the latest version? Will other MediaWiki features like this be incorporated here down the road? --CBDunkerson 12:55, 12 October 2006 (CEST)

At this moment WiktionaryZ is on an old version of the MediaWiki software; consequently many of the later versions are not integrated in WiktionaryZ. Given the big backlog in necessary work this is a serious issue. As to integration, the question is first when the Wikidata / WiktionaryZ functionality will be integrated in MediaWiki than the other way around. As to the parserfunctions, they will not work in the database proper. They would work in the "Main" namespace.
The integration of Wiktionary in WiktionaryZ is first and foremost something that has to be done. There are good reasons why we would encourage this, however the amount of work in integrating Wiktionaries is quite substantial. Wiktionaries can be integrated when people want to do this and when it meets the approval of these Wiktionary projects. GerardM 14:01, 12 October 2006 (CEST)
Well, there's the issue about the license, isn't it ? THe fact that WZ is double-licensed GFDL & CC-BY prevents content in GFDL only to be included, unless all contributors agree the double licensing. It ma be hard to find ALL contributors to the Wiktionary projects... (please tell me that I'm wrong and that Wiktionary content can be included anyway...) le Korrigan bla 01:17, 13 October 2006 (CEST)
There is a distinct difference between encyclopaedic content and lexicologic content. Facts cannot be copyrighted collections can. Wiktionary is not a collection owned by a single copyright holder. Definitions are often such that it is next to impossible to phrase them differently thereby making them factual as well. When Wiktionary content is to be included into WiktionaryZ the data has to be rearranged completely before it can be entered making much of the data unusable in the first place. For instance all translations where there is no indication what definition a translation refers to are suspect
Much of the conjugations and inflections are rule based and much of the data is available from out of copyright sources as well. So there is nobody who can claim copyright on the Wiktionary collection, the data is largely factual in its basis and it is largely unusable as well. This leads to a situation where a 3/4 majority of a community should be able to decide on whether they want to convert their project to WiktionaryZ. GerardM 05:26, 13 October 2006 (CEST)

Languages that are missing codes or profiles.[edit]

How does one use a language code for languages that are not on the list yet?

When you mean languages to add content for, you ask. When a language has a code that we do not have a portal for, you can surely add it when it has an ISO-639-3 code. GerardM 05:10, 13 October 2006 (CEST)

Latin is missing. If that is implemented the scientific names of species could be added as latin translation (or should that be "international"?). --Ortografix 14:18, 29 October 2006 (CET)

Latin scientific names and properly Latin expressions need not coincide. For instance, order Dermaptera is described as insecta dermaptera in the Latin Wikipedia. And of course, Canis lupus is not the way the wolf is called in Latin. Andres 14:23, 29 October 2006 (CET)
It is EXACTLY to exclude the Latin used for taxonomical names that Latin has not been included yet. When we have a good way of including Latin without this becoming a problem only then we will. GerardM 14:40, 29 October 2006 (CET)
I think we could treat the taxonomical names as a style of Latin, and either entirely exclude exact translations or allow them only to expressions having an approved vernacular scientific name status. The ways of such approvement are perhaps different for various languages and might be lacking in most languages. In Estonian they exist. Andres 14:56, 29 October 2006 (CET)
Maybe it's sufficient to distinguish between defined meanings referring to a certain taxon and defined meanings of non-taxonomic nature. Then, of course, Latin pre-taxonomicals words never have exactly the same meaning as taxonomis names. Andres 14:59, 29 October 2006 (CET)
Ok, I did not think of common names in Latin. That is a good point. Then the scientific names should be entered as "intenational" translations. --Ortografix 15:49, 29 October 2006 (CET)

Why that "WiktionaryZ:" prefix for our main namespace?[edit]

Why do you use that "WiktionaryZ:" prefix for the main namespace? Why don't you do it just like it's on the old-style wiktionaries: No prefix for the entry namespace and "Wiktionary:" or "WiktionaryZ:" for the namespace you are calling "Development wiki:" at the moment? It is a bit annoying that there is this redundant "WiktionaryZ:" prefix in front of every dictionary entry. Everything that is for the public dictionary usage, and has nothing to do with this Wiktionary internally, does not need a prefix, I would recommend! --- Greetings, Melancholie 22:59, 14 October 2006 (CEST)

I thought about that too. Having to add "WiktionaryZ" to every content-related page and using the simple no-prefix interface only for administration pages (which are not the focus) gets annoying. Fetofs 03:07, 15 October 2006 (CEST)

On the same idea, we have a Main namespace, and Development wiki namespace [1] which do more or less the same job. Or don't they ? le Korrigan bla 09:38, 15 October 2006 (CEST)

The main namespace is not really useful in this relational model where we have DefinedMeaning: and WiktionaryZ: (that should really be renamed to Expression:). So currently we use the main namespace and Development wiki: to document everything and nothing. In the future, as we get bigger, I think that we should use the main namespace to keep track of projects and stuff, and use the namespace Development wiki: or whatever it will be called then for meta'discussion/documentation. Siebrand 14:50, 17 October 2006 (CEST)
The namespace has been changed to Expression .. GerardM 13:37, 18 October 2006 (CEST) Thanks, Erik :)

On the definitions shown[edit]


I'm not sure where to post this, so it's going in the Beer Parlour. Move it as you wish.

My language is set to Portuguese, but it still shows the English definitions on bold. Would it be hard to check for your language and display that definition?

Also, on a side note, something which I think should be easy to fix: when a definition is short, you shouldn't show ellipsis (look at WiktionaryZ:costly for an example). Fetofs 03:52, 17 October 2006 (CEST)

It does work when I set the language to Portuguese. Could you check again. If it does not work: Check if you have selected Portugese-Brasil. HenkvD 14:26, 17 October 2006 (CEST)
Strange. Even Ctrl-F5 doesn't do the trick. Fetofs 00:18, 18 October 2006 (CEST)
Your langaugage is pt-br! There is no defeinition for Brasilain. If you would select pt is would be OK. HenkvD 09:52, 18 October 2006 (CEST)
That's what I thought (no, I didn't test it). But it still is an error. I have to choose pt-br so that when there are two definitions one is shown, but when there isn't an specific pt-br, it could look for portuguese entries. I don't know how hard this would be to add... Fetofs 13:14, 18 October 2006 (CEST)
For the moment the order for showing definitions is: 1) the language of the user interface, 2) English or 3) whatever is available. I can imagine that you want to see pt-br if it exists, oherwise pt, then es, or a language that you understand better, but that is not implemented. You can always expand the definitons section to see all languages..... HenkvD 14:19, 18 October 2006 (CEST)
es doesn't even need to be implemented, but it would be nice for the main branch of these variations, like English (United States) -> English. Of course I can expand, but it's awkward to do so. Fetofs 15:53, 18 October 2006 (CEST)

WiktionaryZ is still in pre-alpha mode having first eng-US and then eng as well is something that we have not done yet.. When we get to it.. I am happy with the many small steps that slowly but surely cover the distance.. :) GerardM 16:00, 18 October 2006 (CEST)

Easier creation of words of the day[edit]

Because it was quite a chore to create a word of the day, I created a few templates that will make it easier to create a Word of the Day page - they are used for the Words of the Day for morrow and the day after tomorrow: child and laptop. If you want to add a word of the day and have e.g. 4 syntranses, use the following: {{WOTD4}} (or in full: {{WOTD4|a|b|c|d}}). The following templates are available and will probably suffice: {{WOTD1}}, {{WOTD2}}, {{WOTD3}}, {{WOTD4}}, {{WOTD5}}, {{WOTD7}}, {{WOTD10}}. Cheers! Siebrand 15:20, 17 October 2006 (CEST)

Instead of having templates for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 10 instances, I thought it would be better to group it all in one ({{WOTD}}). It accepts from 1 to 10 parameters (at least I think that's how it works :D). Fetofs 13:51, 18 October 2006 (CEST)
Not yet in this version of MediaWiki. Once we m ove over to a more/the most recent version, this will indeed work. Siebrand 17:37, 18 October 2006 (CEST)
Sorry. My fault. The template had an error. Should work perfectly now Siebrand, even with this version of MediaWiki. Fetofs 23:44, 18 October 2006 (CEST)

Some tests:



Great, thank you. I'll get rid of the other templates. Siebrand 09:16, 19 October 2006 (CEST)

Mainpage for Serbian Latin script[edit]

I can put the current Serbian mainpage into Latin script, but I wouldn't know what to name it. The current one in Cyrillic script is already named "srp" so what would it be for Latin script? -Rappo 02:02, 18 October 2006 (CEST)

The portal for Serbian is called Portal:srp. When you want to have both a Latin and a Cyrrilic page you have to make this page something of a Portal to either I would say :) GerardM 13:36, 18 October 2006 (CEST)
And this, too? -Rappo 15:09, 18 October 2006 (CEST)
That would be srp-Cyrl and srp-Latn GerardM 00:03, 19 October 2006 (CEST)

Random pages[edit]

May I ask what, exactly, is the way to choose random pages? I always seem to get Expression:train station on my first 3 tries... Fetofs 23:51, 18 October 2006 (CEST)


I have just added THREE versions of Greek.. I was told that many people in the Netherlands who learn Greek learn the classical Greek.. ISO-639-3 knows four types of Greek; I added them all. GerardM 09:32, 20 October 2006 (CEST)

Here in Spain, some students study Greek, but Classical Greek. It's studied with Latin, because both are dead-languages. Rêignerok (Escríbeme aquí/Write me here) 16:28, 20 October 2006 (CEST)
I do not think that they are both studied becaue they are dead-languages but because they have been so important for the development of the Western culture .. :) GerardM 18:52, 20 October 2006 (CEST)

Translating the wiki[edit]

Hi all, it's really niche that WiktionaryZ is starting... :). Can I help somewhere translating the wiki to italian? It looks like much is already translated, buy much need to be translated, too :) Dennis 15:21, 22 October 2006 (CEST)

Hi Dennis, thank you for offering your help. Check the Category:i18n templates. Most of those pages could use an Italian translation. Cheers! Siebrand 16:57, 22 October 2006 (CEST)
One other thing that will need translation are the labels that are used in the User Interface.. Things like the names of languages .. but also consider the names of the parts of speech that exist (not only those of your language but also of others..) GerardM 17:31, 22 October 2006 (CEST)
How can I translate the whole UI into Italian? Cannot understand where the files are :P Dennis 09:55, 10 November 2006 (CET)
Much of the specific user interface of WZ is in the DefinedMeanings. By ensuring that all the names ARE translated in your language, they will be available in your language when the functionality allows for it. Mind you, we are still very much in pre-alpha. When we have Multilingual MediaWiki we will even have right to left presentation as an option.. GerardM 11:26, 10 November 2006 (CET)

Dansk vs. Danish[edit]

All (or at least most) of the other languages here on WiktionaryZ have their name in English yet instead of being listed as "Danish" the language is listed as "Dansk" (how you say "Danish" in Danish). I just found it a little out of place and was wondering if there is a reason I am missing. Thanks! -Rappo 00:14, 23 October 2006 (CEST)

This is something that indeed needs fixing :) GerardM 06:55, 23 October 2006 (CEST)