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International Beer Parlour/Archive6

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Lack of cooperation[edit]

I am new here. I feel perplexed because the issues I raise on discussion pages are almost ignored. It is really hard to contribute without cooperation. Andres 21:24, 28 October 2006 (CEST)

I think that most issues you raised can be fixed by yourself, as this is a Wiki and you have the edit rights for it. HenkvD 23:19, 28 October 2006 (CEST)
No. I cannot change an English definition if I don't change all the translations which I am not able to do. Besides, I am not sure if other users approve my approach. I see serious problems in the overall approach here. They may lead to the failure of the entire project. Maybe other users can convince me that everything is OK and I am too pedantic. And sometimes I just need a second opinion as I am not sure I am right. I have edited where it seemed possible to me. Andres 15:39, 29 October 2006 (CET)
I would limit myself to Estonian. But I cannot add translations where it's not OK in other language. How can I add new entries? Andres 15:54, 29 October 2006 (CET)
You can add new entries by typing it in the search bar and, when no results come up, clicking "Create Expression". Another way (which is especially good if you are going to do a lot of terms that relate to each other) is to set up a subpage in your User profile and make links to words that have not been created... for example: [[Expression:not a word|not a word]]. This link will appear red on the page: not a word and when you click it, you will be taken to its edit page where you can create the word. -Rappo 18:23, 29 October 2006 (CET)
It seems that the button "Create expression" just doesn't appear for me. Andres 18:49, 29 October 2006 (CET)
Another thing that really helps is to use IRC it is really there for it and most of the time there are "friendly" people there. GerardM 18:36, 29 October 2006 (CET)
Thanks, but I prefer to avoid IRC. Andres 18:49, 29 October 2006 (CET)
This means that you inflict the problem on yourself largely; when you do not use tools available and then say HEY we are not cooperating .. :( 05:57, 30 October 2006 (CET)
Yes, you are right of course. Simply I am used to another wiki culture and I prefer public discussions as else the previous discussions leave no visible trace. But now, thanks to Siebrand, I wouldn't say that there is no cooperation. Anyway, I don't see that people discuss the entries

on the talk pages. And when I put my comments on talk pages people tend to say: "go on, do it". It seems to me that it is natural to leave the comments on the talk page even when I cannot fix the mistakes myself (either due to lack of time or lack of competence), or even namely because I cannot fix them. Andres 10:41, 30 October 2006 (CET)

Or should each entry discussed on IRL? Then I ask: why? The talk pages on wikis are meant for discussions, and discussions should be public as this is the most effective way to do things. This is why I don't want to use IRL. Andres 10:54, 30 October 2006 (CET)
I added the Create expression on MediaWiki:Nogomatch/et as on MediaWiki:Nogomatch. Please translate this. HenkvD 19:30, 29 October 2006 (CET)
Done. Andres 10:54, 30 October 2006 (CET)
I have reviewed your and every other DM/EXP talk page changed in the past 7 days. Please do not be discouraged and take control where you can. We're a small project still and everyone is doing what he/she/it can. Siebrand 00:10, 30 October 2006 (CET)

Proposal: stop importing massive databases[edit]

It seems to me that importing databases lowers the quality of this dictionary. In many cases the databases are unreliable and/or not fitted to our purposes. We lack manpower to fix them. My impression is that currently most entries on OmegaWiki contain bad definitions (not fitting our purposes) and many of them contain bad translations. I think this discourages able people to cooperate as it leaves the impression that here people don't care about quality or don't understand how to do what they declare. So I think we shouldn't import anything before we have fixed at least the definitions (it is, of course, harder to fix the translations because we don't know all languages and expressions). Andres 10:51, 30 October 2006 (CET)

A lot is going to happen, but not the cancelling of the import of databases. GEMET contained about 70k terms. Get ready for the next 1.3M. Siebrand 12:23, 30 October 2006 (CET)
And how are we going to handle it? Is OmegaWiki a repository of databases? Andres 12:27, 30 October 2006 (CET)
When you import resources, it has several effects. One of them is that we are going to get a bigger community another is that we have more content to work on. When we import BIG resources (GEMET is not truly big) we also gain relevance. One of the things that we provide is integration. This integration will start to happen when we have multiple resources to integrate.
The thing to realise is that trying to do everything ourselves is not really effective when you want to bring people and organisations together. What we offer in OmegaWiki is not only a lexicological aspect to resources like GEMET, with other thesauri included, we can bring information together that is currently hopelessly split into different domains. By welcoming new content, we will end up making all this content that is great on it's own great in combination with other content.
Yes, it will be a challenge AND a lot of work. But there is so much data out there that is Free and only needs integrating. There are so many great people and communities that do what we do but have not considered how they can work together to get a better result through more cooperation ... GerardM 14:28, 30 October 2006 (CET)
You mean we could involve people how have worked out there? Has anyone come so far? Andres 15:01, 30 October 2006 (CET)
Please consider that we are still in pre-alpha. We have not tried to advertise our presence on the web. Not really. You might even say we are scared of what will happen if people start to find what we do in a big way. Then again, in a way it is a luxury problem when we find that providing capacity is what we need to do. It is a problem that we are relatively well positioned to solve.. GerardM 15:48, 30 October 2006 (CET)
I see your point. But then please mention on the Main page (or at another visible place) that OmegaWiki has imported massive databases that still should be adjusted to the OmegaWiki purposes. Otherwise the discrepancy between the stated goals and what you can find here is too big. Andres 14:21, 31 October 2006 (CET)
I do not see this as a discrepancy. The stated goals are to have all words, all languages and both lexicological, terminological and ontological information. The best way to get this information is to share data and be inclusive. This is what we do, inclusive is what we are. GerardM 14:52, 31 October 2006 (CET)
What I meant by stated goals are what is declared to be the desirable nature of a DefinedMeaning. I read this and then I discovered that most existent DM-s are not like what is written there. This is a serious discrepancy: the word and the dees are in discrepancy. When it is mentioned that the existing material is just raw material then there would be no such impression. Therefore I think mentioning this is really important.
Besides, it seems to me that you and most other people here underestimate the difficulty of the task. Without a pedantic precision there will be a mess here. Such a multilingual project needs another approach to definitions than it is usual in monolingual dictionaries. Andres 15:20, 31 October 2006 (CET)
I think Andres has a point. Now, I don't want to dismiss the idea completely, but there are some things to consider. Andres is right when he says that there's a certain problem with new visitors to the site. They come here and expect to find definitions and translations of high quality. What they don't expect is that the majority of the data was imported from somewhere else and still needs to be cleaned up and adjusted. Someone who doesn't know that might come across an entry such as this or this and think that this is our idea of structuring data. When another 1.3 million entries are imported only a tiny fraction of our data will have been checked by editors and the chances of coming across bad entries will be quite high.
Another issue is with the editors. Renaming and deleting pages isn't everbody's idea of fun and that's what cleaning up mostly consists of. So naturally things will progress very slowly and in the meantime we have a huge amount of bad quality entries. This isn't something I'm very happy about, usually I prefer quality over quantity. --Tosca 18:09, 31 October 2006 (CET)
Quality exists on many levels. When you import a thesaurus, the relevance of this data is in in the relations. As such it has high quality. From a lexicological view these entries may not be that great. The capitalisation of the Bulgarian content comes to mind. The way synonyms are handled is another having them comma separated is not a good idea.
So far we have done most things manually. This has been really instructive and therefore valuable. We need to have better functionality to do things by hand however, many things can also be done by bots or programs. When we are going to import the UMLS data, much work has already been done to better integrate the data with other data. This means that much work will not need to be done on our data. I also think that when we can do things with programs we should do them that way. In my opinion the time of our editors is valuable. GerardM 19:20, 31 October 2006 (CET)
First of all, it is clear that the editors will eventually need better tools for merging existing DM:s, we will get a lot of doubles.
Secondly I have been toying with the idea of some sort of peer review. The general idea being that users coming across a bad entry should not need to go into edit mode or some such to state that, but simply have to click. (Yes I know it is reminiscent of the boring 'Was this information useful?' provided by a lot of support sites..) The problem is of course to get people to click, and not only to click when they are annoyed by a bad entry, but also click when they find an entry well-written. The clicks (possibly in relation to the number of page views) could then be used to give a rating to the entry. Entries with low ratings could be located by editors, etc. The main stumbling block I have with this idea (apart from convincing any dev to implement it) is on what level to review? DM as a whole would be the easiest, best looking way, but most likely too coarse a tool to be any good at all... The finer grained the review, the better the tool but the harder to implement and make editors use. Well... I know I might only be dreaming... *smile*--Sannab 19:23, 31 October 2006 (CET)
It think that it is instructive to identify what is bad about the entry. And it would great to discuss what to do before doing. Maybe after an experience of discussion and collective work on specific entries we could formulate some general guidelines. Right now each entry raises principal questions. Andres 19:50, 31 October 2006 (CET)
Indeed each entry raises principal questions. This is exactly why we have imported GEMET to start with. We are pre-alpha software, without this material to work against, and be confounded by, and finding problems with, and solving problems with, we would not be able to move from pre-alpha to alpha and further on. --Sannab 20:42, 31 October 2006 (CET)
Yes. My proposal for more effective work is to choose some specific entries to be a polygon where to discuss and experiment. That is, I propose to cooperate on some specific entries as to bring them as near to perfection as we can as to definitions and translations. Andres 00:23, 1 November 2006 (CET)
We have such lists. Please start with the 1000 words for the OLPC dictionary. Siebrand 01:48, 1 November 2006 (CET)
So then, I propose to take them one by one. Then whynot start from the English "a", which is a specially difficult case. I mean, trying collectively to work out its definitions translations as perfectly as we can. By the way, I think relations should wait until definitions are more or less ready. Andres 06:34, 1 November 2006 (CET)


This user may have been adding a lot of already existing concepts. Is there someone with both English and gls (Giləki) or pes (Persian, فارسی) skills that is able to audit his contributions? Siebrand 16:26, 30 October 2006 (CET)

It seems that there are not a lot of them so far. The mistake of putting the pronunciation in seems to be an accidental mistake. Andres 16:42, 30 October 2006 (CET)
I added some of those DM-s to English expressions (north, Caspian Sea) but the structure in those expressions still needs work. The data of one of them I completely added to the English expression water. Andres 09:10, 31 October 2006 (CET)

My first use of actual use of the DefinedMeanin: tag[edit]

The Portal:tog is for the Tonga language. The name of the language is typically referred to as an Expression in the Portal. There are however multiple languages called Tonga. Realising this, I decided that referring to the Expression did not make sense, so I had it refer in stead to "DefinedMeaning:Tonga (374363)".

What is funny to me is, that it is only now that it sunk in that this is only one situation where it makes sense to refer to the DefinedMeaning and not to the Expression .. GerardM 06:49, 31 October 2006 (CET)

I think you should mainly link to DefinedMeanings, because you almost always mean the (Defined)Meaning and not the comination of letters (Expression). You never know if an Expression gets more DefinedMeanings and you don't have to search for the good DM. And maybe the links can be translated automatic in the future. WebBoy 18:09, 3 November 2006 (CET)

Mr Murphy is not welcome[edit]

Well, Erik goes away to some of the places where we all want to go to on a holiday.. (he is there for a conference) and we have the worst outages in our existence. As this is typically attributed to a Mr Murphy, can we please ban this guy ?? GerardM 02:17, 5 November 2006 (CET)

Schwyzerdütsch vs. German (Switzerland)[edit]

This seems to be another language problem similar to the Dansk-Danish one. However, the language German (Switzerland) already exists, along with Schwyzerdütsch which is how you say Swiss German in Swiss German. Just thought I'd bring it up. Thanks, Rappo 07:55, 8 November 2006 (CET)

For your information Schwyzerdütsch is where you find the information to this language I am not convinced that you have it correctly.. I am almost certain that you are not. Swiss German is a dialect, Schwyzerdütsch is considered a language. GerardM 09:29, 8 November 2006 (CET)
Alemannic German this is the English Wikipedia article on the subject. GerardM 09:54, 8 November 2006 (CET)
German (Swiss) is the Swiss variation of Standard High German. There are some differences in spelling and (for example they don't use ß) and some words that are not used outside of Switzerland. Schweizerdeutsch or Schwyzerdütsch is a collective name for various dialects spoken in and around Switzerland (with the code gsw). --Tosca 11:52, 8 November 2006 (CET)
Okay, thanks for letting me know. -Rappo 19:46, 10 November 2006 (CET)


The name of languages are now shown in local language. Some names are left blank, probably because there is no translation. A few questions:

  1. How can I translate Mandarin (simplified), Serbian (Latin script) etc.
  2. Why is Welsh not shown (in Dutch), as it is translated in DefinedMeaning:Welsh (6291), and code cyg is in the collection.

I think for the missing translations the same rule as for missing definitions should apply: 1. the language of the user interface, 2. English, 3. whatever is available (or 2. the langaugae of the language name). It is impossible to have all available languages translated into all user interface languages. In the lesser used languages (like Afrikaans) most languages are blank! HenkvD 21:26, 21 November 2006 (CET)

This is something that we asked the developer (Leftmost) to look into.. The problem for Mandarin (simplified) is something we do not have a solution for yet. GerardM 07:07, 22 November 2006 (CET)
I just noticed that it looks like this issue is solved. HenkvD 10:35, 17 December 2006 (EST)

Norwegian distinctions[edit]

There are two types of Norwegian: nyorsk and bokmål (there is a difference between them in many words) yet the language listed here is simply Norwegian. Every time I add a Norwegian translation, it's either a proper noun or it is the nyorsk type. Maybe all current Norwegian translations can be changed to Norwegian (Nyorsk) and Norwegian (Bokmål) can be added as another language. If there is a reason as to why this has not been done already, sorry for bringing it up again ;) Thanks! -Rappo 04:00, 22 November 2006 (CET)

What is this language?[edit]

Expression:pose has the language blank, even with the English interface. Any idea on what this language is? (and of course, make it appear please) Kipcool 12:29, 22 November 2006 (CET)

It might be Norwegian. I looked at the source of the cache on google... HenkvD 12:41, 22 November 2006 (CET)
I see it as (norwegian) bokmål (ISO 639-3 nob) for which there is only Dutch and Swedish SynTrans:es... --Sannab 14:44, 22 November 2006 (CET)

Language names in Estonian[edit]

In the new interface with language names by language preference, I cannot see most language names (in Estonian) and many of them are wrong. Where can I fix them? Andres 15:59, 22 November 2006 (CET)

OmegaWiki is using its own translations to display the translated language names. If one is blank (or wrong), that means the translation is missing (or wrong) in the corresponding WZ article. You have to fix it here. When you've done this, please tell Gerard (or any other bureaucrat) so that he pushes his magical button to update the language names. Kipcool 16:16, 22 November 2006 (CET)
There is another problem. Though in Estonian the names of language normally contain the word "keel", in cases like this it is omitted (there remains only the first, adjectival component). Andres 17:05, 22 November 2006 (CET)

I used my personal test DM to all User:Sannab/Editable languages. To be used by anybody to check translations of language names. Feel free to complete this DM. HenkvD 01:10, 23 November 2006 (CET)

Problems with Russian language list[edit]

When using the Russian UI to add synonyms and translations, there are some blanks and other problems for languages.

Blank (English version given on the left)[edit]

  • Serbian (Cyrillic Script) => сербский (буквы кириллицы)
  • Serbian (Latin Script) => сербский (буквы латиницы)
  • Khmer => кмер
  • Gilaki => гилаки
  • Mandarin (Simplified) => ?
  • Mandarin (Traditional) => ?


  • Фризский => фризский
  • tатарский => татарский
  • испанский язык => испанский

No translation[edit]

  • Akan => аканский
  • Alemannic German => алеманский
  • Arbëreshë Albanian => арбёрешё
  • Arvanitica => арванитика
  • Bambara => бамбана
  • Eastern Mari => ?
  • English (United Kingdom) => английский (Великобритания)
  • English (United States) => английский (США)
  • Ewe => ?
  • French (Belgium) => французский (Бельгия)
  • French (Canada) => французский (Канада)
  • French (France) => французский (Франция)
  • French (Switzerland) => французский (Швейцария)
  • German (Austria) => немецкий (Австрия)
  • German (Switzerland) => немецкий (Швейцария)
  • Gheg => Гег
  • Greek (ancient)
  • Greek (Cappadocian)
  • Greek (Mycenaean)
  • Hausa (Arabic script)
  • Hausa (Latin script)
  • Igbo => игбо
  • Ladin => ладино
  • Lingala (Latin) => лингала
  • Lombard => ломбардский
  • Piedmontese => пьемонтезский
  • Portuguese (Brazil) => португальский (Бразилия)
  • Portuguese (Portugal) => португальский (Португалия)
  • Sranan => сранан
  • Tosk
  • Venetian => венецианский
  • Western Mari
  • Yue

Also, all of the languages listed under "Blank" appear in English.

Is there any way for me to fix these myself rather than listing them on this page? For example, if I were to do the same for Serbian... should I come back here and list the problems or is there a better way? :P Thanks. -Rappo 00:43, 27 November 2006 (CET)

This is a wiki, so when something is wrong, please amend it. When something is missing please add. OmegaWiki is a work in progress .. It is for us to make it relevant and correct. GerardM 08:14, 27 November 2006 (CET)
Rappo, the way to fix it is to add the translations to the DefinedMeanings for the languages, then ask a bureaucrat (like Gerard or me f ex *smile*) to rebuild the language name list. That will unfortunately not work for the ones with parenthesis, which cannot be seen in any languages but English yet, but it is being worked on.... --Sannab 10:08, 27 November 2006 (CET)
Thank you, I didn't know it worked like this. -Rappo 16:16, 27 November 2006 (CET)

How to add new slovene transtalations[edit]

Hello! How to add new slovene transtalations for example of Summary prewiev, or Show changes? Which is this file? On slovene wikipedija is w:sl:MediaWiki:Summary. --Mihael Simonič 22:32, 4 December 2006 (CET)


Putting a translation of a word by Piedmontese (Dutch) gives the word but no language.(see for example lavender). MARCEL 12:10, 8 December 2006 (CET)

That means the translation of Piedmontese in your language interface (Dutch?) is not in WZ. Please add the Dutch translation to Expression:piémontais and ask Gerard to update the wiki. Then, it should be ok. Kipcool 14:36, 8 December 2006 (CET)

Mercie bien Kipcool. MARCEL 04:18, 10 December 2006 (EST)


How can this user post spam with I haven't blocked it because it seems strange to block private range IP addresses. Siebrand 05:07, 11 December 2006 (EST)

This is part of the transfer of the project to the new server. This problem will go away by Thursday. GerardM 05:47, 11 December 2006 (EST)

Japanese translation of interfaces[edit]

language names[edit]

  • Akan - アカン語
  • Basque - バスク語
  • English (United States) - 英語(米国)
  • Ido - イド語
  • Kashubian - カシュビアン語
  • Kölsch - ケルン語
  • Mandarin (traditional) - 中国語(繁体)
  • Mandarin (simplified) - 中国語(簡体)
  • Marathi - マラーティー語
  • Navajo - ナバホ語
  • Pennsylvania Deitsch - ペンシルバニアドイツ語
  • Serbian (Latin script) - セルビア語(ラテン)
  • Serbian (Cyrillic script) - セルビア語(キリル)
  • Standard German - 標準ドイツ語
  • Spanish - スペイン語
  • 韓国語 - 朝鮮語

MediaWiki namespaces[edit]

shoudn't it be a OmegaWiki: namespace??

oops too much... I give up with this way.. needs sysop ;) and cvs!

and, how can I change order of "language" section? usually, language should order by how it read (not by code order) a lunguage name in Japanese. Thanks.--Suisui 12:23, 30 December 2006 (EST)